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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.22 15:04:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: geno effort
They're only powerful if you're not packing ECCM.
Let's say we fit an ECCM mod on our Megathron. That hurts our fitting a lot. Which is ok, if we just fitted a good counter.
Falcon has 7 mid slots, with 5-6 ECM modules. 5 multispecs give him "only" a 66% chance to jam the Megathron. And that's a ship that has a good sensor strength to begin with and gimped itself to fit a counter. Two racial jammers alone already jam that Megathron for over 50% chance. With the other three off-racials, it's up to 63%.
Which is why I think that ECCM is too weak. CCP agrees, too. All is well. :-)
Id say ECCM should just give infinite (or lets say 1000) sensor str. You still need to sacrifice slots for it but at least you can be sure you are immune to randomness..
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.22 19:27:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/12/2008 19:26:56
Originally by: BiggestT
Edited by: BiggestT on 22/12/2008 15:59:44
Heres a great post that I saw regarding falcons, and highlights the reasons why direct nerfs e.g. reduce strength/range, are not the best idea...
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Let's take an example - a proposition to reduce jamming strength by 50% or more (see nerf requests to reduce falcon jam strength to pre-boost days). This proposition comes from people who jump up on a table and babble incoherently how ECCM is utterly useless. I guess they never stopped to realize that doubling their OWN sensor strength has very nearly the same effect as halving the ECM strength - per their logic the falcon would still "perma jam" them.
Dont have time but will respond to this one. No, reducing falcon jammers by 50% does not give same effect as putting ECCM on a ship. Why? Because if you reduce falcons str it works half-powered agains EVERY ship out there (even retribution which has hard time fitting eccm with 1 mid). Thus its like giving every ship out there +1mid filled with ECCM.
And yea - falcon still would "perma" jam most ships. BUT if you include ECCM on top of 50% falcon nerf (as a module) then suddenly you are 4x harder to jam compared to todays ships on TQ. Thus ECCM gives almost-immune state for user (almost being the key word - you can still get odd jam thru but this will be rare). Result? ECCM becomes working defence.
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.22 23:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Range nerf = painful stupidity. We already have a short range ECM boat, ever hear of the Widow? I'll give you one guess as to why nobody ever uses it for ECM...
Why noone uses it as ecm? Because there is falcon which:
1. can warp cloaked compared to widow
2. has better range
3. is MUCH cheaper
So there is absolutely no point of bringing widow as an ECM platform compared to falcon unless you want to look cool on killmails. Its exactly same issue as with rook (point 1 which pretty much kills it) minus coolness factor.
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.23 06:43:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/12/2008 06:44:45
Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 23/12/2008 05:13:30
Quote:
Thus ECCM gives almost-immune state for user (almost being the key word - you can still get odd jam thru but this will be rare). Result? ECCM becomes working defence.
Then what would be the point in using ECm, if everybody was close to immune? You would be better of just taking another damagedealer with you.
And what would be the point in bringing a falcon, when 90% of it`s fittings are countered with 1 single midslot module???
Its natural progression:
1. after intorducing "ultimate ECCM" still not every ship would use it but a bit more than nowadays (i guess you would see it on ceptors for example)
2. less falcons in fleets
3. people see less falcons = people stop using ECCM that often
thus balance gets achieved.
It is EXACTLY what happened with falcons:
1. falcons get boost
2. you see enemy bring falcon and screw you over
3. you bring your own falcon to counter their falcon
Didnt it happen in like last few patches? I havent seen 1/3 of fleets composed of falcons before, nowadays i do. Surely its not because "i bring what i like to fly" but because falcons are only proper falcon counter+they are so goddamn good at their job.
Quote:
Imagine RR bs, with dual ECCM modules, what could stop them?
Lack of their own slots to fit dual ECCM on every setup...
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.23 07:59:00 -
[5]
Then propose something to bring falcons in line. You are saying: "use ECCM" - doesnt it hit ALL ECM ships as much as falcons? And why you still see falcons as over 80% of ECM ships in gangs?
Yes i also use falcon alt (almost max skilled - lack lvl5 of signal distortion or something, forgot its name) and i know exactly how good they are. Do i agree with this? Hell no.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 09:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Etien Aldragoran
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And why you still see falcons as over 80% of ECM ships in gangs?
The covert ops cloak. It's the only reason you'd use a falcon over a Rook.
It was rethorical question. Answer is obvious...
And fix? Make some difference between falcon and rook - reducing falcon range would be good start. Long range no cloaky or short cloaky - hey i saw it somewhere... pilgrim and curse anyone?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 10:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dasfry
Edited by: Dasfry on 24/12/2008 09:46:48
Instead of trying to modify the way the game works...
why not try to modify your tactics?
get someone to probe out the damn falcon from off grid,
warp in a small suicide gank squad point blank and tear the falcon a new one...
continue singling out the falcon first
soon enough falcon pilot hates life
What you are proposing is: "if someone brings falcon be sure to bring 3+ people to counter it". Yeh most people are smart enough to outblob falcon users - problem is: it doesnt give you fights. Most people will run as soon as you outblob them.
Also i can modify your tactics so its way easier to pull off: "bring your own falcon". Why play "probes + suicide gang" when you can have your own falcon?
Also it is EXACTLY same thing which i heard against nano battleships. "bring more people to tackle it" "bring your own nano battleship". Rings a bell?
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.24 10:31:00 -
[8]
Last i heard arazus dont damp that good at 200ish km.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:00:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/12/2008 11:02:46
1. most falcons DO have 200km range fits (sensor + range rig(s))
2. at 200km your arazu wont do anything to them. And this is NOT because you can not LOCK that far but because dampeners have SHORT range (unless you get very lucky with dampener faloff roll)
3. using lock time reduction instead of lock range reduction on 200km falcon is ******ed
4. maybe your falcon cant permajam anything. Mine does use overheat + sometimes eos so can even permajam low tier battleships. And even without eos i get nice 14 str on racials which can permajam most HACs
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:18:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/12/2008 11:21:36
I think you are trolling like always instead posting about the subject. So gtfo back to your "i need 60km blasters" thread.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:29:00 -
[11]
So how is your "knowledge" at all useful to someone who flies in small gangs?
Back to your previous post:
Quote:
That is ok cos most of the ppl on here crying about falcons are flying short range setups anyway let alone carry multiple sensor booster with range scripts.....
So which ships will be able to counter falcon by fitting multiple sensor boosters? And im talking SMALL ROAMING GANG stuff here. And which of those ships will be able to actually fend off 200km falcon?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: maralt
Learn how to read.
Me be not understand yoo. Yoo translate. Or GTFO like i said.
Asked specific question: how is your "knowledge" useful to small gangs. You fail to deliever.
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:35:00 -
[13]
You are still trolling and STILL not replying to my question. What would you change? Or what gang fits do you propose for small roaming gangs to actively defend themselves from falcons?
Or you just dont know? Then why are you still here?
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Deva Blackfire
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:48:00 -
[14]
Quote:
i do think that a small gang without ecm that engages another small gang that not only has ecm but has it setup at long range SHOULD lose.
So what you exactly are saying is: "if enemy has falcon bring your own falcon". Yup - its perfect reason for a nerf - exactly same as with nanophoons. Good to know your opinion on it tho - at least someone confirming the system is broken.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 11:57:00 -
[15]
Quote:
i do think that a small gang without ecm that engages another small gang that not only has ecm but has it setup at long range SHOULD lose.
here - ill do interpretation for small kids - like you do in primary school:
"small gang" - gang of 5-10 people
"without ecm" - not bringing falcon/rook/other ECM boats
"another small gang" - another gang of 5-10 people
" not only has ecm but has it setup at long range" - thus falcon or rook (or maybe scorp) sitting at 200km
Thus you are saying that gang without ECM should lose to gang with long range ECM. And this is broken. because its exactly "gang without nanophoon should lose to gang with nanophoon".
Thus you are still confirming what was said in this thread: ECM impact on combat is TOO heavy. No other ship class/module can imbalance small gang fight on the level ECM does. You cant say "side with more webs should win" neither "side with more dampeners should win". But you said "side with more ECM should win". Why am i ignoring "long range setup ECM"? Because counter ECM is also long range. Defauls ECM boat is falcon which is long range ECM boat by itself.
You want to add something else? Or only thing left is insults like you did thru half of this page?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 12:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: maralt
Now as things are the gang without ewar has to be considered rather out of position (maybe just jumped into a setup camp) and rather poorly setup as a gang considering the available options in eve.
I would assume that most gatecamps are badly prepared (usually with mix of this-and-that so everyone can get on killmail) and gatebreaking gangs are ones that know what to expect (especially if they are created to break particular gatecamp). But we can assume both sides are equally-well-fit.
Quote:
Now if the non ecm gang is sniper fitted the falcon not only must jam all 5-10 (its imposable to jam 10 with 1 falcon and even jamming 5 would require the exactly correct racials) or either die/warp off.
We are still talking about small gangs. And in small gangs the ONLY 200km "snipers" are eagle, cerb and falcon. You will rarely see battleships inside 5-10 man gangs and especially sniper battleships. Even if you include them this only adds up: rokh, raven and apocalypse (mega/hyperion is just on edge of range, ill ignore em this time).
And you are saying that falcon needs to jam 5-10 ships to stay on field thus enemy gang should have 5-10 "snipers". Thats the whole size of said gang (note: small gang) which means that its quite easily disposed. Snipers arent known for their resilence.
Quote:
While also its true that if the falcon/ecm gang is jumping into the camp that the ewar ship must cloak (if a falcon) and spend a lot of time repositioning (by witch time a 5-10 man gang fight would be close to over tbh), or be called instantly primary and melted.
It is quite possible (and oten used) to jump in falcons 1st and let them prepare around gate. With new larger gates its very hard to catch them before they warp off.
Quote:
The moral of the story is that its always better to be in a versatile gang and also to dictate the terms and range of the engagement to suit you, these are called basic tactics.
Which still doesnt say anything about why falcons are used around 80% of the time in gangs instead of other ships. And this was the point of this thread. Falcons being too good compared to other ECM boats (which turned into ECM whine - but ECM system being buggered is entirely another thing).
Quote:
Bombers with damps make okish scouts and are very effective at neutering falcons.
They die way too fast to anything that looks at them funny and after falcon repositions they still need to crawl to new location. Thus they are one trick pony, good when you know where falcon sits or if falcon pilots lacks spots to warp around.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 13:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Which still doesnt say anything about why falcons are used around 80% of the time in gangs instead of other ships.
Falcons are used in gangs cos they are a good and useful gang ship when flown correctly, but other ecm ships are better in certain circumstances, as well as other recons are better in certain circumstances as well.
So when is rook better than falcon?
Scorpion is better sometimes when you play RR gangs/jump into camp but in this situation falcon will still be able to jump 1st and get to spot, wheras scorpion will be primaried and there is almost no chance for RR gangs to save scorps because to their small HP buffer.
This or fleet fight jammers because they are much cheaper than falcons. But except for fleets (where jamming is mediciore/bad idea anyways) falcon is MUCH better ship than scorpion. Which is back to start: falcon is way better than other EWar ships.
And where i still say what was said before: remove their range bonus. Close cloaky or long range non-cloaky (rook) exactly like pilgrim/curse duo works.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 13:46:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Which is back to start: falcon is way better than other EWar ships.
At jamming yes..but at webbing, or putting a point on summat or nueting or just general solo pvp?.
Yes i am talking about ECM boats and not comparing them to all EW boats. My mistake, but you perfectly knew what i meant. Playing with words doesnt make you look smart, you know?
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 14:03:00 -
[19]
If you were following what i said in this thread (i sure do hope you read everything instead of jumping straight to last page) you would know i was talking only about ECM ships. Thus use of EWar boats was as a synonym to ECM ship in this particular case. Its obvious to someone who reads and understands what he is reading isnt it?
As for emo part - i have no clue what you are talking about. Googling for "emo" gives me pictures of some gay/homosexual looking people. Maybe you are trying just to tell me you are accustomed to this culture/subculture but you dont need to drag me down to their level. So i dont judge who you are or how ya look like, neither i care. But if you want to post make it readable instead of playing smartass which you do.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.12.24 14:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 24/12/2008 14:15:28
Originally by: maralt
Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 14:13:44
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
If you were following what i said in this thread (i sure do hope you read everything instead of jumping straight to last page) you would know i was talking only about ECM ships. Thus use of EWar boats was as a synonym to ECM ship in this particular case. Its obvious to someone who reads and understands what he is reading isnt it?
Maybe you should stick to one terminology when referring to ECM ships pal, as for me personally a ewar ship is a much broader reference than just falcons and ecm bonused ships.
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